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Thought for the day: Buying used is just as bad as piracy.
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Rup



Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 363
Location: London, UK



PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unclever title wrote:
Is it wrong to sell a used car? Is it wrong to sell used clothes? (Goodwill/Salvation Army) Or perhaps used toys other than video games?

But those are practical items and they degrade - there is still value in buying new. With games or CDs or DVDs you're selling entertainment, you're selling experiences. It makes sense to try and charge for it per end-user.

How about lending? You can't buy a DVD from the high street then set up a business lending it out - or do you think you can? You need to buy special lending DVDs for a much higher price to cover the more people that'll see it.

What it comes down to is that there needs to be a sustainable business model for people who make video games. If you deliberately break the model you're ruining it for everyone.
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Poo Bear
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Joined: 14 Oct 2002
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Location: Sheffield, UK



PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a controversial subject, but check out this scenario:

Joe: Hello MrGameStop, do you have Halo3?

Mr.Gamestop: Yes, it's $60 or you can have this second hand copy for $30, don't worry we'll replace it if it doesn't work.

Joe: WOW! I'd be an idiot not to go for that.

Mr.Gamestop: Indeed, and we get to keep all the money from the sale and don't have to give the developer anything, isn't that great! We both win.

Oops. The result IS a shift to direct digital download systems like Steam (who are already the biggest PC online distributer in the world). Consoles aren't far behind. This immediately stops shop selling these as second hand.

But what about individuals?

Halflife2 on Steam - can I give this to someone else i.e. the game moves from my account to theirs?

XBLA downloads - can I give them to someone else?

Warhawk on PS3 - if I downloaded it, can I give it away?

I honestly don't know. I tried to find out on steam (I have HL2) but couldn't find anything?
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Weeble
Starscape Jedi
Starscape Jedi


Joined: 25 Apr 2003
Posts: 1143
Location: Glasgow, Scotland



PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steam's pretty good, but the thing I object to is that all my games are tied together in one account. For example, I bought "Peggle Deluxe", which my girlfriend enjoys. But I can't let her play my copy of Peggle on my laptop while I play Team Fortress 2 at lunchtime at work. That doesn't seem an unreasonable thing to do: we're not both playing the one copy of Peggle at the same time, and we're not both playing the one copy of Team Fortress 2 at the same time. I would agree that doing either of those things would be copyright infringement and unfair to the developers.

I also have more than one Steam account I have another account with another copy of (the original) Half-Life that I used to use to let friends play on one of my secondary computers when they came over to visit. But now I need to carefully decide when I'm buying a game which account to put it on. If I pick the wrong one I can never move it across, even though I own both accounts. And now that Steam has introduced a friends system, I have two identities and I can't be both of them at the same time, but if I want to play a game that's on one account but not the other I have to switch identities.

I don't hate Steam, I actually think it's quite good, and it's the only way to get some very good games. But as I have more and more games in my collection, they feel less and less valuable because they are all mutually exclusive. It's not that I could play two of them at once, but just that I feel like when my friends come over, I should be able to let them play with my toys, if you see what I mean. I'm trying to imagine what my mum would have thought when I was a kid if we told her that she had to buy two copies of every game, one for me and one for my brother.
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Ren Fraggle



Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 31



PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

about steam gifts

Since you already have HL2, if you bought the orange box, you would have HL2 registered to your account twice. You can take the second registration and transfer it to someone else as a gift.

You can't transfer a game that you only have one of. If you are buying something meant for someone else, then you have to identify their account at purchase.


As for having more than one steam account, a single steam account is comparable to a single computer. In most any eula you look at for software, there is usually something in there saying that you can't have this software installed on more than one machine unless you buy a second license. Unfortunately, the way steam works, you can't remove a game from an account once it's registered to it in order to register it to another one.
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icarus
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Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Location: Olympia Washington



PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My argument has nothing to do with copywrite laws.

If you buy something new, The creator is paid.
If you pirate it, The creator is not paid.
If you buy it used, The creator Still is not paid.

It is a moral argument based from the perspective of the creator rather than an artificial construct like Copywrite laws which clearly state that buying second hand goods is the same as buying new goods.
However Justice and Law are two entirely different entities. There are plenty of bad things you can do that are perfectly legal.

Personally I hate Video Game pawn shops like Gamestop and prefer direct downloads like steam.
With steam you pay the same amount you would pay at a store and 100% goes back to the creators. Where as in a store the middlemen get to take a large share of the profit.
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Darth Dallas



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 411



PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Stardock guys do something similar to steam if I'm not mistaken. Its been a while since I played the Galactic Civilization games, but they have their own client program you get where any game whether its store bought or a digital download you get from them can be tracked in terms of registered owners (its something key too if there are updates). You can also play their games without the need for the CD in the drive.

I guess I like the model because it means you'd see support for older games longer than most in such a system. I believe it also makes things easier if you choose to buy direct but I can't remember off hand. I do remember buying Gal Civ II as a digital download first but I did opt to get the CD version for a few bucks more. So, like Starscape, I could enjoy the digital download while my CD backup was on its way.

If you ask me, I think these used places will get snowed under eventually by either all digital downloads, but also we'll probably be seeing a much bigger up swing with developers who sell direct and who fight less and less for the old model of trying to get their stuff on store shelves (its usually kind of a miracle to even get shelf space in the first place in that cut throat environment).

However, any business that can thrive with more than one model will probably always do better than most I would suspect. Maybe companies like Gamestop, if they want to stay in business by that point, they'll have to change their model drastically as well to compensate.
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Code_Crank_Call



Joined: 22 Dec 2005
Posts: 16



PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Notably, in a competing system (predators and prey, sellers and buyers etc.) Change is always paramount, I suppose the best we can hope for is to out-evolve the old system.

But, in the meantime, one thing reselling does accomplish to some degree is improved syndication. That is; games change hands and theoretically are apt to reach more people, as the game would be available discounted and thus more available.

Conversely; as is apparent in this thread, none of that cash goes back to the developer after that sale. So I suppose, if the publicity/syndication's even improved enough to be relevant, it's exposure Vs. Income.
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Evil Lorax



Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 3
Location: Wisconsin, USA



PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rup wrote:
Unclever title wrote:
Is it wrong to sell a used car? Is it wrong to sell used clothes? (Goodwill/Salvation Army) Or perhaps used toys other than video games?

But those are practical items and they degrade - there is still value in buying new. With games or CDs or DVDs you're selling entertainment, you're selling experiences. It makes sense to try and charge for it per end-user.

How about lending? You can't buy a DVD from the high street then set up a business lending it out - or do you think you can? You need to buy special lending DVDs for a much higher price to cover the more people that'll see it.

What it comes down to is that there needs to be a sustainable business model for people who make video games. If you deliberately break the model you're ruining it for everyone.


By that logic, Libraries are a scourge.

The author who spends years writing a book doesn't get paid by everyone who reads the book and experiences the story through the library, so the whole operation is sinister.

The logic seems strange to me.

To buy is to make an exchange for ownership. If I buy something, then it's in my possession. If you buy a copy of a game from the developer, then it is no longer under their ownership. That particular copy is yours. you have the right to use it. It cannot be resold by the developer, because it isn't theirs anymore.

If it were any other way then you really haven't bought anything.
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Chrisj



Joined: 28 Oct 2006
Posts: 95
Location: Oxford, UK



PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evil Lorax wrote:
Rup wrote:
Unclever title wrote:
Is it wrong to sell a used car? Is it wrong to sell used clothes? (Goodwill/Salvation Army) Or perhaps used toys other than video games?

But those are practical items and they degrade - there is still value in buying new. With games or CDs or DVDs you're selling entertainment, you're selling experiences. It makes sense to try and charge for it per end-user.

How about lending? You can't buy a DVD from the high street then set up a business lending it out - or do you think you can? You need to buy special lending DVDs for a much higher price to cover the more people that'll see it.


By that logic, Libraries are a scourge.

The author who spends years writing a book doesn't get paid by everyone who reads the book and experiences the story through the library, so the whole operation is sinister.


In fact, in the UK, authors do get paid when their books are borrowed from the library. The amount per loan isn't very much, and there's a minimum number of loans below which you don't qualify (and a maximum annual payment so that the money doesn't all go to bestseller-writing millionaires). But most authors I know like libraries, and would continue to do so even if they didn't get paid for use of their books in the libraries, because authors tend to read (or at least refer to) a lot of books... and non-bestselling authors can't afford to buy every book they'll ever want.

Also, of course, books (and indeed music) in libraries can generate sales - having read it all the way through, you might decide to buy a copy so that you can read it repeatedly, or refer back to it. But that doesn't apply in the same way to games; games that I've played through from beginning to end more than once are few and far between (and replaying one particular room isn't usually interesting). Playing the demo and then buying the game is one thing, but playing the whole game significantly reduces the chances of making a purchase in a way that I'm not sure reading the whole book (or listening to the whole album) does.

Part of this is probably to do with length: it's notable that the games I have played through more than once are either very flexible (like some RPGs, where it really matters whether you're good or evil) or Starscape-sized. Being fun matters too (obviously), but setting out to replay something that took 200 hours the first time is a big investment of time, when I could play a dozen new Starscape-sized games in that time and might like one of them more. So Starscape gets replayed, and Neverwinter Nights doesn't.

Evil Lorax wrote:

To buy is to make an exchange for ownership. If I buy something, then it's in my possession. If you buy a copy of a game from the developer, then it is no longer under their ownership. That particular copy is yours. you have the right to use it. It cannot be resold by the developer, because it isn't theirs anymore.


Tell that to Microsoft! Rolling Eyes

Evil Lorax wrote:

If it were any other way then you really haven't bought anything.


You can buy rights: consider a train ticket, which is essentially the right to travel from A to B by train. I don't own any part of the train itself, even temporarily. (And some types of tickets are transferable, but others - notably ones like season tickets that allow unlimited journeys - aren't.)
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Darth Dallas



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 411



PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its been a while since I loaded her up, but I found it cool to notice Starscape is on Stardock Central's/Total Gaming.net's thingy. Awesome.
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jtjumper



Joined: 12 May 2007
Posts: 5



PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

icarus wrote:
My argument has nothing to do with copywrite laws.

If you buy something new, The creator is paid.
If you pirate it, The creator is not paid.
If you buy it used, The creator Still is not paid.

It is a moral argument based from the perspective of the creator rather than an artificial construct like Copywrite laws which clearly state that buying second hand goods is the same as buying new goods.
However Justice and Law are two entirely different entities. There are plenty of bad things you can do that are perfectly legal.

Personally I hate Video Game pawn shops like Gamestop and prefer direct downloads like steam.
With steam you pay the same amount you would pay at a store and 100% goes back to the creators. Where as in a store the middlemen get to take a large share of the profit.

Used is paid the first time. If I buy used furniture makers aren't paid a second time. There's nothing wrong with that because they were paid the first time.
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icarus
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Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Location: Olympia Washington



PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jtjumper wrote:
icarus wrote:
My argument has nothing to do with copywrite laws.

If you buy something new, The creator is paid.
If you pirate it, The creator is not paid.
If you buy it used, The creator Still is not paid.

It is a moral argument based from the perspective of the creator rather than an artificial construct like Copywrite laws which clearly state that buying second hand goods is the same as buying new goods.
However Justice and Law are two entirely different entities. There are plenty of bad things you can do that are perfectly legal.

Personally I hate Video Game pawn shops like Gamestop and prefer direct downloads like steam.
With steam you pay the same amount you would pay at a store and 100% goes back to the creators. Where as in a store the middlemen get to take a large share of the profit.

Used is paid the first time. If I buy used furniture makers aren't paid a second time. There's nothing wrong with that because they were paid the first time.


Oh man, a flame war comes back from the dead.

I want you to know. In the time since I started this thread, I have,

    Got a job
    Beta Tested Mr Robot
    Graduated high school
    Joined the Air Force
    Watched the first black president get elected
    Got my first speeding ticket
    Watched the economy collapse
    Lost my virginity
    Left the Air force during an economic downturn
    Worked several jobs
    Watched Moonpod games fall apart (I still have my Mr Robot mousepad)
    Watched the GOP fall apart as the first black president gets re-elected
    Became old enough to drink
    Got my drivers licence
    Gotten better at 'speling' (sic)
    Gone to two different colleges
    Watched Donald Trump become a presidential candidate
    And currently questioning my gender identity because that's hip these days.


I still have opinions on copywrite(sic) laws, but I'm not sure I can really continue a conversation from almost 10 years ago. I wouldn't recognize that kid, and he wouldn't recognize me.
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Poo Bear
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Pod Team


Joined: 14 Oct 2002
Posts: 4121
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice Cool
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Weeble
Starscape Jedi
Starscape Jedi


Joined: 25 Apr 2003
Posts: 1143
Location: Glasgow, Scotland



PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

icarus wrote:

  • Got my first speeding ticket
    ...
  • Got my drivers licence


Are these in chronological order?

icarus wrote:

  • And currently questioning my gender identity because that's hip these days.

Heh, snap. I officially changed my name last month. I'm now Annette. 😃😃😃 (I still also use Weeble, though.)
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icarus
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Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Location: Olympia Washington



PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weeble wrote:
icarus wrote:

  • Got my first speeding ticket
    ...
  • Got my drivers licence


Are these in chronological order?


...Yes. There is a long story involved that I won't relate here.
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