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Mouse control!!
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icarus
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Joined: 01 Mar 2004

Location: Olympia Washington



PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

on a desktop i use the arow keys and on a laptop i use wasd but i never invert the mouse (or any countrols excpt in games whith the camra behind the player like 3ps and flight sims)
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VashuTStampedo



Joined: 11 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I could direct all your attention, another game called GenJox - produced in DigiPen university, used the mouse as an aiming/firing input, with the keys as movement. Now, I'm sure this could be used, but as I was just playing it, what I would most like to use is mouse aiming. Button one: thrust. Double click button one: Boost. Right click: Reverse thrust. And of course, the mouse cursor would be used to rotate the ship. Nothing else needs to be changed, in my opinion. I'm just really frustrated at the randomness of firing - I at least want to know I'm pointed in the right direction, even though my lasers don't always shoot that way (the first lasers).

EDIT: Maybe as an upgrade! A sniper scope or something. I don't know. If you're really not looking to use the mouse, maybe have an upgrade to display a long dim line to show the path of our firing?

Oooo, an intersting thought - having Aegis control? I could think of a number of reasons to WANT Aegis control - but mostly I think that would be a cool idea Very Happy.
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Fost
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think with the control system you mention, you are getting into the realms of Robotron yet again.

I personally don't think the rotate+forward&backwards works so well with mouse aiming (where the ship points at the mouse cursor), and it works better with: keys (or better still, left analogue stick on a dual stick pad) control movement, but there's no rotation, and mouse (or right analogue stick) control aiming. I don't think that would be bad at all, but even though it might look the same (probably have to change the ship, so it looks like it can move and aim in any direction) it would have totally different gameplay. I also think that this type of gameplay only really excels on a dual analogue stick pad, which is a really limited audience.

Anyway, I'm not saying that idea is bad, I'm a big fan of several games of this type (Alien Shooter anyone?)

I also think the idea of mouse aiming or movement, where the ship or turret does not immediately aim at the cursor would be bad. Could be wrong, that's just an educated guess; you really need to test these things out to get a feel for them. I just think if you have to wait for something to rotate and aim at your cursor, it would be frustrating.

So, my current favourite for mouse control would be either:

The mouse horizontal axes control ship rotation with immediate feedback, but you lose reverse thrust.

OR:

We could try leaving rotation speed as is, and use something as mentioned in the last post, whereby the ship rotates to point at your mouse cursor (or you rotate a cursor at the ship).

I'd like to see mouse support for ship control go in for Starscape, as several people have asked for it. The vexing things from a development point of view are:

[*] I like old school arcade controls, wanting to even play this game on a pad seems like madness to me Very Happy Keys are what the experts use, (although we get a lot of mail from people who love chilling out by playing starscape on their home cinema on a wireless gamepad.) Mouse control mode is something I would never personally want to use for this type of game.
[*] Still, enough people seem to want it, so we'd like to put it on the 2do list (which usually means it will turn up at some point Cool , we just can't guarantee how long). the problem is, there hasn't so far been one post that agrees with another Rolling Eyes
[*] Further still, some people seem to want a control system which would actually alter gameplay in a fundamental way (not to mention break the game completely for those sensible people who want to use keyboard or gamepad).

So, maybe what I should do, is come up with all the different options, and post them along with controller diagrams (the above is a little hard to understand sometimes), and run a poll.


On a related note, we do have one report of someone playing the game through using a racing wheel... sigh... (still, he said he had loads of fun, and that's what counts Very Happy )
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VashuTStampedo



Joined: 11 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EDIT: As for the waiting for the ship to turn, you could have the cursor light up green, indicating that it's in line with your current target spot.

Well - I just meant that the ship would move towards the cursor, not that the ship's weaponry would fire in the at direction, the ships position unimportant too it.

I'm just really trying to push the idea of some sort of turning/aiming method that's precise, instead of just guessing and feeling it out with a fixed turn rate and the keyboard. The mouse movement achieves that.

There are some issues with turn rate - it has been suggested to put a limiter on it.

Something I thought of again, is the distance the cursor is away from the ship, which is no relation to the aiming, but just a cool idea - direct fire on that spot that the cursor is pointing to.

Example: The angle of the guns could point inwards and pinpoint the point where the cursor is - all weapons aim to that point.

Maybe another upgrade Very Happy I can't imagine it's entirely all that useful, just cool to watch Smile
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Darth Dallas



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For games of this type, I much prefer the 3 or 4 keys along with the arrow keys for movement. I've craved a more simplified game of this type for ages. However I like what's been said with regard to cursor aiming, although perhaps if I were flying around in the Aegis instead, that might make more sense to cursor aim with the mouse Smile
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Fost
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darth Dallas wrote:
perhaps if I were flying around in the Aegis instead, that might make more sense to cursor aim with the mouse Smile

funny Very Happy I was thinking the same thing. I hate to rely on a fixed control system like that however: it could be a bit jarring going from one to the other.
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HunterXI



Joined: 26 Dec 2003
Posts: 476
Location: Playing like there is no tomorrow.



PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hm... on desktops I always use WASD and non-inverted mouse. I think it's really messed up using the arrow keys because of the way you have to stretch your left hand. my friend does that, and I have no **** idea how he doesn't break his wrist.
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Darth Dallas



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still using the default setup the game recommends, Q W E R and the arrow keys. I find it works well for me, however ironically if I were playing a first person shooter, its my left hand that's controlling the arrow keys while I'm mouselooking/aiming/firing/jumping with the mouse with the right. I never could quite get used to the WASD side of things, partly because its easy to hit other keys nearby by accident heh.

I'd have the same problem if I were using the numeric pad instead of the arrow keys. Anyhoo nowadays I'm glad more games are allowing us to map our own keys for stuff, its a big help.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how many people just use the defaults though? and if they aren't set up just how they like (it seems there's no correct way that will make everyone happy, and it's all down to preference) then it feels wrong and you just turn the game off? If you'd already bought the game, then you'd probably go to the effort of setting it up the way you like, but indie games tend to be sold off the back of the demo, so it needs to be right from the start.

Maybe extending the tutorial a bit (this is all a lot of work, so I'm just talking about it as a theory for improving the ergonomics of the user experience), so at the start JJ asks you if you would like to use the default keys, or let her quickly set up an alternative control system?

If you answer yes, then you get a quickfire questionnaire from her that would go something like this: (I'm using the '>' character to mean 'goto' so '>2' means 'go to step 2')

1: How would you like to control the ship?: Possible answers: Keyboard Only >2 | Keyboard & Mouse >6| other gaming devices (list all we detect)>7
2: Which do you prefer? Possible Answers: Left hand movement controls, Right hand Firing and Other controls >3 | Right hand movement controls, Left hand Firing and Other controls >4
3: Your default keys are:
MOVEMENT
W forwards
S backwards
A left
D right
OTHER
U FIRE1
I FIRE 2
O Tractor Beam
P Dock (double tap to call Aegis)
Would you like to change any of these keys? Answers: No, I want to keep these controls >exit | Yes, I'd like to change the controls.>5
4: Your default keys are:
MOVEMENT
Cursor Keys
OTHER
Q FIRE1
W FIRE 2
E Tractor Beam
R Dock (double tap to call Aegis)
Would you like to change any of these keys? Answers: No, I want to keep these controls >exit | Yes, I'd like to change the controls.>5
5: Goes though the process of 'press a key for fire, press a key for up' etc, and then asks you again if you would like to keep the keys or change them. and either exits or goes through the entire process again.
6:4: Your defaultcontrols are:
MOVEMENT
Mouse left/right -move ship left and right.
Left Mouse button, thrust
Right Mouse button, reverse thrust.
OTHER
Q FIRE1
W FIRE 2
E Tractor Beam
Would you like to change any of these keys? Answers: No, I want to keep these controls >exit | Yes, I'd like to change the controls.>5
7: Movement would default to pad, and we'd automatically ask the user to press a key for Fire1, Fire2, Tractor Beam, Call Aegis (since pad button order on PC gamepads is an utterly random affair Crying or Very sad )

Perhaps a flowchart would be better to descrive the above, but you get the idea....
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Darth Dallas



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, just speaking from the perspective of the defaults for SS, its not as troublesome for me because the firing keys are all in one direction/row. Sometimes I use my left pinky finger for fire 1, left ring finger for fire 2, left middle for grav beam, then left index for calling the station. If I don't expect I'll be calling the station so often, I'd then tend to go with ring finger primary fire, middle secondary, index for grav beam.

I don't know if its the same way with anyone else who's right handed, but I have my left doing all the firing and such with my right doing the movement thing. I'm curious though if lefties would want a mirror setup if their mouse is on the left side of the keyboard, with the keys being over on the P, O, I, U side or whatever.
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Bolt_Crank



Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I'm playing an FPS on the laptop, I use WASD and inverted mouse... on a normal keyboard, I use the cursors and inverted mouse... I've got long fingers... on my beastly keyboard, I can comfortably reach from the up cursor with my index finger to the G button with the pinky, and keeping the middle finger for strafing...

and I don't know why... but I can't play any FPS without an inverted mouse... the first time I played one, it wasn't inverted and I hated it...
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icarus
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well in starscape online maby if you countrool captall ships you could fly whith the arow keys and countrol the turits whith the mouse
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only problem with that idea is that it's usually not good to have different control methods for different parts of the game. E.g. if you are forced to use the mouse for Aegis turrets, and keyboard/Pad for the ships, it'll be a little jarring.

This comes back to Mutant Storm again for me - that's a great game, but I don't think it works so well with anything but dual analogue sticks (mouse isn't bad too). It is fundamentally a completely different game, admittedly one that I love, but one that I also think has limited appeal to anyone but hardcore fanatics of the genre (like me Wink ).

For a PC game, I just think it's bad to hone a game for a specific type of gamepad. It could work ok though with a mouse (as you point out) but then I don't think it will work so well with keys or controllers - which is also very important.
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HunterXI



Joined: 26 Dec 2003
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Location: Playing like there is no tomorrow.



PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So we all agree that the keyboard works fine? I said... Razz

Anyway, it's like with Halo: why not stick with something you know works, when you also know that sticking with it may make the rest of the game feel so natural?

If in Starscape 2 (and let's just say that S2 will have t3h same controls as Starscape 1), I'll be blowing up bad guys in, say, a turret, I think that having right/left arrow keys as a rotational function and Q as my primary cannon and W as whatever else would be perfect, because it feels so natural. It feels like I already know how to work it. And that's what will make S2's control system popular.
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Adivs



Joined: 24 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fost: Can you imagine if someone made a 1st person without strafing

Wolfenstein 3D, Jack. Only REAL men dare to take on Der Fuehrer in one of the few 3D games that came out before 3D cards even EXISTED. Non-90-degree angle walls are for WIMPS and COMMIES. Four weapons not enough for you? You scared without your screen-clearing superweapon? That trip to Germany give you hellacious flashbacks every time someone said "Guten Tag"? That's what I thought.
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